Fembots and TF procreation

[Angelophile]

TFs have children together? Canonically?

When?

[DeRob]

i dont mind a female TF, the courtship, sex, love arc, family, etc.

^more plot potential, depth added to an already rich fiction we have. Should it always be about warring factions and relationships with the humans? yeah thats the main essence, but should we stop there? Its always been like that. In TFA we had an academy plot plus some teen love(i know it sucks to some but a cool angle to non fans who were starting to get interested with tf fiction), thats a good example.

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Angelophile

TFs have children together? Canonically?

When?

On numerous occasions. Wheelie was the product of parents. He was a child and had a mother and father who were killed in the crash that stranded him on Quintessa. This is revealed in the children's book, Wheelei: the Wild Boy of Quinessa. In the last issue of the japanese manga [i]Victory[i], we are introduced to Esmeryl, the wife of Deathsarus, Lyzak, the sister of Leozak, and the other wives and many many children of the Decepticons. It is this revalation which brings about an end to the war when Esmeryl explains that Deathsaurus and his forces were fighting to save them. It showed that the Decepticons were no different that the Autobots or Humans. They were simply fighting to save their families. The Lithonians, another transformer species, which may or may not be descended form Cybettronians, also clearly show families, including husbands, wives and children in the movie. In [i]Beast Wars[/b] we learn that Arcee was Rat Traps' Great Aunt and Optimus Prima is a direct descendent of Optimus Prime. There are familial lineages. In the Cybertron comic, produced by Fun Publications, Downshift has a wife as well. This is all canon. So yes, in canon, Transformer couples can and do have children together.

[Darth Shadex]

Transformers are bloody machines! MACHINES - DO - NOT - REPRODUCE SEXUALLY! IT - IS - IMPOSSIBLE! NOR DO THEY NEED TO REPRODUCE THAT WAY!

Comprehende? The only time Wheelies parents were mentioned was a in a frackin' storybook! Why? So kids would feell compassion for Wheelie.

No one ever in robotics went "Hey lets make robots to be able to reproduce sexually". Self replicating robots mean: A ROBOT THAT CAN BUILD ANOTHER ROBOT!

[Angelophile]

Originally Posted by Tramp

On numerous occasions. Wheelie was the product of parents. He was a child and had a mother and father who were killed in the crash that stranded him on Quintessa. This is revealed in the children's book, Wheelei: the Wild Boy of Quinessa. In the last issue of the japanese manga [i]Victory[i], we are introduced to Esmeryl, the wife of Deathsarus, Lyzak, the sister of Leozak, and the other wives and many many children of the Decepticons. It is this revalation which brings about an end to the war when Esmeryl explains that Deathsaurus and his forces were fighting to save them. It showed that the Decepticons were no different that the Autobots or Humans. They were simply fighting to save their families. The Lithonians, another transformer species, which may or may not be descended form Cybettronians, also clearly show families, including husbands, wives and children in the movie. In [i]Beast Wars[/b] we learn that Arcee was Rat Traps' Great Aunt and Optimus Prima is a direct descendent of Optimus Prime. There are familial lineages. In the Cybertron comic, produced by Fun Publications, Downshift has a wife as well. This is all canon. So yes, in canon, Transformer couples can and do have children together.

You have a very strange concept of canon. The only one even vaguely approaching it there is Beast Wars and Rattrap's exclamation can be accepted as family lineage about as much as me saying "and Bob's your uncle" proves that Roberto Orci is your father's brother.

[Kup]

First of: Japanese TF Manga are weird as shit and not compatible with Global/western canon. Most of the time is not even compatible with Japanese G1 canon.

Second of all: Wheelie's story book is not 100% canon as it is a kid's 'bed time' story. The Survivalist part is canon but the Parrents bit is ambiguous at best.

Now to the idea of TF females and reproduction:

According to G1 Marvel Comic canon there are NO SUCH THING AS MALE OR FEMALE TRANSFORMERS. They don't have genders and the perception of female or male 'personalities' are just how humans interpret them.

This was established when that Giant Female Amazon hot chick wanted to go 'nasty' on Cloudburst who immediately came out of his Pretender shell and explained that Transformers have no genders (He got decapitated for that).

There is one exception however and that is Arcee and she is only female in body design, color and voice because Optimus Prime felt the need to create a 'female' Autobot who can relate better to the human population, particularly females.

Now Transformer relationships: It is in canon that Cybertronians form bonds between each other but these are not 'relationships' as we know it, meaning sexual. They are basically very close friendships and they are made by any pair of Transformers despite the 'gender' suggested. It is important to remember that there is nothing Sexual about these bonds. The Sunbow cartoon hinted at sexuality but there are a lot of things that have been dismissed about the sunbow cartoon over the years as they had far too many silly concepts that were there primarily to relate to children not tell a story.

The comic G1 Universe takes prominence as it was unrestricted in this regard.

Examples of TF bonds:

Dreadwind and Darkwing
Top Spin and Twin Twist
Rumble and Frenzy
Micromaster Combiners pairs
Micromaster teams
Countdown and Groundshaker
Snapdragon and Apeface

Which are no different to:

Springer/Hot Rod and Arcee
Obsidian and Strika

[Kup]

Originally Posted by Angelophile

You have a very strange concept of canon. The only one even vaguely approaching it there is Beast Wars and Rattrap's exclamation can be accepted as family lineage about as much as me saying "and Bob's your uncle" proves that Roberto Orci is your father's brother.

There are many theories to that and it doesn't have to involve 'sexuality' as Angelophile suggests.

Transformers are known to show 'Family relations' in terms of from where or by who they were constructed. As far as we know Arcee may have decided to make her own line of 'Micromaster' based Transformers at the end of the War and Rattrap could be in that lineage.

There is another venue of Transformer reproduction though (G2). This was a forgotten program created by Primus at the very beginning of the creation of Transformers. It allows them to nano replicate in a similar fashion as mitosis. This was used by a sect of exiled Decepticons but the process was later lost with them.

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Master Fwiffo

Good post.

If you, for some sick reason, you perverted bastards you, want to discuss TF reproduction (did Marvel *really* use budding?) that incorporates male and females, my vote goes for a spark meld type theory.

But really, why would you?

As for a *cultural* reason, female TF's could tend toward medical, and cultural relations fields, while male TF's tend toward construction and combat duties. Since the war began, the distinctions have more or less ceased as bots were forced into the fields they were needed in.

Or, you can just say 'The Allspark made me that way!' and be the hell done with it.

Or, for the hell of it, they could just have Arcee act female.

And then people can take what they want out of it.

My take? Female transformers have always been done as humongous cliches.

The only one done well was Airrazor.

And I liked her a lot. What did I learn? I hate the execution of the concept, not the concept itself.

If implemented correctly people would just view fembots as characters rather than spending endless hours debating about robogenitals or effeminate aesthetics.

What a stupid argument.

[choHIlqoq]

Originally Posted by Darth Shadex

Transformers are bloody machines! MACHINES - DO - NOT - REPRODUCE SEXUALLY! IT - IS - IMPOSSIBLE! NOR DO THEY NEED TO REPRODUCE THAT WAY!

Comprehende? The only time Wheelies parents were mentioned was a in a frackin' storybook! Why? So kids would feell compassion for Wheelie.

No one ever in robotics went "Hey lets make robots to be able to reproduce sexually". Self replicating robots mean: A ROBOT THAT CAN BUILD ANOTHER ROBOT!

Strictly speaking Humans are machines too,just carbon-based and built up from a molecular level,but machines nonetheless.

[Confusatron]

Tramp, you have to distinguish between the concept of a female, and the actual female gender.

My point is, you're assuming a shitload of stuff that's not mentioned explicitly, therefore not canon.

And anyway, let's forget every other discussion in this thread and focus on this one, it will simplify things and we'll arrive at the same conclusion-

What Gender is Shockwave?

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Darth Shadex

Transformers are bloody machines! MACHINES - DO - NOT - REPRODUCE SEXUALLY! IT - IS - IMPOSSIBLE! NOR DO THEY NEED TO REPRODUCE THAT WAY!

Comprehende? The only time Wheelies parents were mentioned was a in a frackin' storybook! Why? So kids would feell compassion for Wheelie.

No one ever in robotics went "Hey lets make robots to be able to reproduce sexually". Self replicating robots mean: A ROBOT THAT CAN BUILD ANOTHER ROBOT!

First off, being robotic makes no difference. It's irrelevant. I've already shown precidemce of at least two other robotic forms of life which can and do reproduce sexually. The little aliens from Batteries Not Included and the Thirds from [pi]Armitage III Plymatrix[/i]. Being robotic does not make it impossible for sexual reproduction to occur. Secondly, Transformers are not just "robots". They are life forms and exhibit all of the characteristics of life forms including self-maintaining, cellular regeneration and growth, responding to stimuli, metabolism, adaptation and evolution, orgaization, etc. They are not just machines. They are living organisms. On top of that, yes, scientists have discussed the viability of self-replicating machines. It is actually one of the goals of nanotechnology.

Also, Self replication does not mean a robot building another robot. It means creating a new being from one's self without outside means. That means no factory, no tools, The new creation is from yourself. from your own body. That is procreation. That is self-replication, and is absolutely essential to life. a robot building another robot is not self-replication because the new robot isn't born from the first. IT was built for parts in a factory. It's not the same thing.

Originally Posted by Angelophile

You have a very strange concept of canon. The only one even vaguely approaching it there is Beast Wars and Rattrap's exclamation can be accepted as family lineage about as much as me saying "and Bob's your uncle" proves that Roberto Orci is your father's brother.

It isn't a strange reading of canon. Look at the sources. the last issue of Victory specifically shows and states that Deathsarus and his forces all have wives and many children. It was the major plot of the story and what ended the war. Teletraan-1 discusses this fact here:

Decepticon females make their first (yet still to this day very rare) appearance in official fiction as Esmeryl (Deathsaurus' wife) and Lyzack (Leozack's sister) both show up to show the Autobots just what it is Deathsaurus and his crew have been fighting for all this time: their poor female counterparts and countless children back home. This spares the Decepticons' lives in the final battle between the two forces. This certainly casts an odd light on the matter of Transformer reproduction (and on the manga author).

found here: http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Female_Transformers here is even an image from the manga: http://images.wikia.com/transformers...eryl-manga.jpg Teletraan-1 also brigns that point up about Victory here:

This does not, however, change the fact that the manga could also be thoroughly bizarre at times, including such oddities as Deathsaurus being terrified of a caterpillar, four young boys wandering around in robot hot pants, and its infamous conclusion, featuring the first canonical appearance of female Decepticons and little tiny baby Decepticons.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Victory_%28manga%29the last issue of Victory specifically shows Transformers as spouses and parents of children. And it is indeed canon, just as Wheelie: Wildboy of Quintessa is also canon. Both stories were officially sanctioned and licensed by hasbro or Takara. That makes them canon.

Originally Posted by Kup

First of: Japanese TF Manga are weird as shit and not compatible with Global/western canon. Most of the time is not even compatible with Japanese G1 canon.

Second of all: Wheelie's story book is not 100% canon as it is a kid's 'bed time' story. The Survivalist part is canon but the Parrents bit is ambiguous at best.

Now to the idea of TF females and reproduction:

According to G1 Marvel Comic canon there are NO SUCH THING AS MALE OR FEMALE TRANSFORMERS. They don't have genders and the perception of female or male 'personalities' are just how humans interpret them.

This was established when that Giant Female Amazon hot chick wanted to go 'nasty' on Cloudburst who immediately came out of his Pretender shell and explained that Transformers have no genders (He got decapitated for that).

There is one exception however and that is Arcee and she is only female in body design, color and voice because Optimus Prime felt the need to create a 'female' Autobot who can relate better to the human population, particularly females.

Now Transformer relationships: It is in canon that Cybertronians form bonds between each other but these are not 'relationships' as we know it, meaning sexual. They are basically very close friendships and they are made by any pair of Transformers despite the 'gender' suggested. It is important to remember that there is nothing Sexual about these bonds. The Sunbow cartoon hinted at sexuality but there are a lot of things that have been dismissed about the sunbow cartoon over the years as they had far too many silly concepts that were there primarily to relate to children not tell a story.

The comic G1 Universe takes prominence as it was unrestricted in this regard.

Examples of TF bonds:

Dreadwind and Darkwing
Top Spin and Twin Twist
Rumble and Frenzy
Micromaster Combiners pairs
Micromaster teams
Countdown and Groundshaker
Snapdragon and Apeface

Which are no different to:

Springer/Hot Rod and Arcee
Obsidian and Strika

Anything officially licensed and sanctioned by either Hasbro or Takara is canon. None of it is Apocrypha. therefore, yes, Victory and Wheelie: Wildboy of Quintessa are canon. and they do prove transformers have children. They can be mothers and father, and produce offspring from their union.

Secondly, I have already dealt with Marvel comics. Marvel comics is the only continuity which establishes Transformers as naturally asexual. it is unique to that continuity and does not establish anything in regards to any other continuity. In every other continuity they are established as having always been male and female from their creation by Primus. All other continuites firmly establish that Transformers have gender theydo indeed have sexes. They are male and female and have always been so. In the cartoon, Arcee is not some creation made to placate human feminists. She isn't unique. Female Transformers have always existed on Cybertron. Beta was a female Transformer, and mate of Alpha Trion. She leasd the revolt against the Quintessons. Elita-1, Chromia, Firestar, Moonracer, all four were the girlfriends (or even wives) of Optimus Prime, Ironhide, Inferno, and Powerglide respectively since long before the men left for Earth over four million years ago.

Originally Posted by Kup

There are many theories to that and it doesn't have to involve 'sexuality' as Angelophile suggests.

Transformers are known to show 'Family relations' in terms of from where or by who they were constructed. As far as we know Arcee decided to make her own line of 'Micromaster' based Transformers at the end of the War and Rattrap is in that lineage.

There is another venue of Transformer reproduction though (G2). This was a forgotten program created by Primus at the very beginning of the creation of Transformers. It allows them to nano replicate in a similar fashion as mitosis. This was used by a sect of exiled Decepticons but the process was later lost with them.

Yes, and none of those "theories" make any sense. Being male or female only serves one function in any species of life, and that is reproductive. It is the reproductive systems that make one male or female, not appearance or behavior. A female corocodile looks identical to a male (albeit smaller), and behaves the same as well. what maker her female is her reproductive organs. Read the definitions of "male" and "female".

From The Webster's dictionary:

Male: the sex which begets young by fertilizing by fertilizing the female

Female: 1. a human being of the sex which becomes pregnant and gives birth to young; a woman or girl. 2. any animal of coorisponding sex which bears living young or produces eggs. 3. a pistilate plant. (adj) belonging to the sex which bears young or produces eggs.

Transformers are male and female in all continuities but Marvel comics. They do have sexes. Marvel comics continuity is the only continuity where this is not the case. Arcee is not unique in any other continuity besides Marvel. There are over seventytwo specifically identified female Transformers throughout canon. At least 10% of all transformers actually shown on screen, in the comics, or as a toy are female. Arcee is far from unique. She is only unique in Marvel UK, and doesn't even appear in the US comics. In all other realities, females are quite common, and far from out of the ordinary. Transfomers do have sexes.

As for their being capable of reproducing through budding in Marvel comics, that actually supports my position. If, in the one continuity where they are sexless, they can reproduce asexually, [b]there is no reason[b] why, in all of the other continutiies which do establish them as having sexes—as being male and female and exhibiting all of the physical, behavioral, and cultural characterisitcs of sexual life forms—they can't reproduce sexually.

Sexes only serve one purpose. Being either male or female only serves one function, and that is reproduction. It is the only reason why any life form is male or female. It is their reproductive systems that make one male or female, not outward appearance or behavior. Those are a result of ones sex, not what establishes a sex. Transformers have sexes in all continuities but Marvel. They court each other, compete for mates, marry, and have children. This is all established in canon. They can and (ocassionally) do reproduce sexually.

Here is a list of known romantic couples in canon:

* Beta - Alpha Trion
* Elita One (Ariel) - Optimus Prime (Orion Pax)
* Firestar - Inferno
* Chromia - Ironhide
* Moonracer - Powerglide
* Arcee - Hot Rod
* Arcee - Springer
* Arcee - Chromedome The Headmasters
* Arcee (she gets around) - Bumblebee G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers
* Nancy - Wreck-Gar
* Esmeryl - Deathsaurus
* Clipper - Holi
* Rage - Stampy
* Airazor - Tigatron
* Blackarachnia - Silverbolt
* Botanica - Rattrap
* Strika - Obsidian[1]
* Downshift has a female "life partner" whose name has yet to be revealed.
* San Diego once had plans to marry Discharge, apparently directly inspired by that aspect of human culture. Whether there was an actual romantic relationship involved is unknown.

Simply put, sexes and sexuality only serve the purpose of reproduction. transformers do have sexes (except in Marvel comics). They are male and female and exhibit all of the characteristics and behaviors of males and females. They exhibit physical sexual dimorphism, they engage in courtship, they compete for mates, marry, and even have children. They are definitely sexual life forms. They are not sexless except in Marvel, and there, no females exist at all. Once you have male and female, you have sexual reproduction. It does not matter if the species is organic, robotic, crystaline, silicon, or what-have-you. Sexes are exclusive to sexual reproductive life.

[Confusatron]

Originally Posted by Tramp

First off, being robotic makes no difference. It's irrelevant. I've already shown precidemce of at least two other robotic forms of life which can and do reproduce sexually. The little aliens from Batteries Not Included and the Thirds from [pi]Armitage III Plymatrix[/i]. Being robotic does not make it impossible for sexual reproduction to occur. Secondly, Transformers are not just "robots". They are life forms and exhibit all of the characteristics of life forms including self-maintaining, cellular regeneration and growth, responding to stimuli, metabolism, adaptation and evolution, orgaization, etc. They are not just machines. They are living organisms. On top of that, yes, scientists have discussed the viability of self-replicating machines. It is actually one of the goals of nanotechnology.

Also, Self replication does not mean a robot building another robot. It means creating a new being from one's self without outside means. That means no factory, no tools, The new creation is from yourself. from your own body. That is procreation. That is self-replication, and is absolutely essential to life. a robot building another robot is not self-replication because the new robot isn't born from the first. IT was built for parts in a factory. It's not the same thing.

It isn't a strange reading of canon. Look at the sources. the last issue of Victory specifically shows and states that Deathsarus and his forces all have wives and many children. It was the major plot of the story and what ended the war. Teletraan-1 discusses this fact here: found here: http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Female_Transformers here is even an image from the manga: http://images.wikia.com/transformers...eryl-manga.jpg Teletraan-1 also brigns that point up about Victory here: http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Victory_%28manga%29the last issue of Victory specifically shows Transformers as spouses and parents of children. And it is indeed canon, just as Wheelie: Wildboy of Quintessa is also canon. Both stories were officially sanctioned and licensed by hasbro or Takara. That makes them canon.

Anything officially licensed and sanctioned by either Hasbro or Takara is canon. None of it is Apocrypha. therefore, yes, Victory and Wheelie: Wildboy of Quintessa are canon. and they do prove transformers have children. They can be mothers and father, and produce offspring from their union.

Secondly, I have already dealt with Marvel comics. Marvel comics is the only continuity which establishes Transformers as naturally asexual. it is unique to that continuity and does not establish anything in regards to any other continuity. In every other continuity they are established as having always been male and female from their creation by Primus. All other continuites firmly establish that Transformers have gender theydo indeed have sexes. They are male and female and have always been so. In the cartoon, Arcee is not some creation made to placate human feminists. She isn't unique. Female Transformers have always existed on Cybertron. Beta was a female Transformer, and mate of Alpha Trion. She leasd the revolt against the Quintessons. Elita-1, Chromia, Firestar, Moonracer, all four were the girlfriends (or even wives) of Optimus Prime, Ironhide, Inferno, and Powerglide respectively since long before the men left for Earth over four million years ago.

Yes, and none of those "theories" make any sense. Being male or female only serves one function in any species of life, and that is reproductive. It is the reproductive systems that make one male or female, not appearance or behavior. A female corocodile looks identical to a male (albeit smaller), and behaves the same as well. what maker her female is her reproductive organs. Read the definitions of "male" and "female".


Transformers are male and female in all continuities but Marvel comics. They do have sexes. Marvel comics continuity is the only continuity where this is not the case. Arcee is not unique in any other continuity besides Marvel. There are over seventytwo specifically identified female Transformers throughout canon. At least 10% of all transformers actually shown on screen, in the comics, or as a toy are female. Arcee is far from unique. She is only unique in Marvel UK, and doesn't even appear in the US comics. In all other realities, females are quite common, and far from out of the ordinary. Transfomers do have sexes.

As for their being capable of reproducing through budding in Marvel comics, that actually supports my position. If, in the one continuity where they are sexless, they can reproduce asexually, [b]there is no reason[b] why, in all of the other continutiies which do establish them as having sexes—as being male and female and exhibiting all of the physical, behavioral, and cultural characterisitcs of sexual life forms—they can't reproduce sexually.

Sexes only serve one purpose. Being either male or female only serves one function, and that is reproduction. It is the only reason why any life form is male or female. It is their reproductive systems that make one male or female, not outward appearance or behavior. Those are a result of ones sex, not what establishes a sex. Transformers have sexes in all continuities but Marvel. They court each other, compete for mates, marry, and have children. This is all established in canon. They can and (ocassionally) do reproduce sexually.

Here is a list of known romantic couples in canon:

* Beta - Alpha Trion
* Elita One (Ariel) - Optimus Prime (Orion Pax)
* Firestar - Inferno
* Chromia - Ironhide
* Moonracer - Powerglide
* Arcee - Hot Rod
* Arcee - Springer
* Arcee - Chromedome The Headmasters
* Arcee (she gets around) - Bumblebee G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers
* Nancy - Wreck-Gar
* Esmeryl - Deathsaurus
* Clipper - Holi
* Rage - Stampy
* Airazor - Tigatron
* Blackarachnia - Silverbolt
* Botanica - Rattrap
* Strika - Obsidian[1]
* Downshift has a female "life partner" whose name has yet to be revealed.
* San Diego once had plans to marry Discharge, apparently directly inspired by that aspect of human culture. Whether there was an actual romantic relationship involved is unknown.

Simply put, sexes and sexuality only serve the purpose of reproduction. transformers do have sexes (except in Marvel comics). They are male and female and exhibit all of the characteristics and behaviors of males and females. They exhibit physical sexual dimorphism, they engage in courtship, they compete for mates, marry, and even have children. They are definitely sexual life forms. They are not sexless except in Marvel, and there, no females exist at all. Once you have male and female, you have sexual reproduction. It does not matter if the species is organic, robotic, crystaline, silicon, or what-have-you. Sexes are exclusive to sexual reproductive life.

O RLY?

"Aphids are known for having unusual reproductive adaptations in some species. Many aphids undergo cyclical parthenogenesis. In the spring and summer, only females are present in the population. Reproduction is typically parthenogenetic and viviparous. Females undergo a modified meiosis that results in eggs that are genetically identical to their mother (parthenogenetic). The embryos develop within the mothers ovarioles, and give live birth to 1st instar nymphs (viviparous). Aphids typically live from 20-40 days and thus undergo multiple parthenogenetic, viviparous generations each summer. In the fall, a change in photoperiod and temperature cause females to parthenogenetically produce sexual females and males. The males are genetically identical to their mothers except they have lost one sex chromosome. Sexual females and males mate and females lay eggs that will develop outside of the mother. Thus in the fall aphids undergo sexual, oviparous reproduction. The aphids will overwinter as eggs and hatch out as females in the following spring."

[Confusatron]

Originally Posted by Tramp

Simply put, sexes and sexuality only serve the purpose of reproduction. transformers do have sexes (except in Marvel comics). They are male and female and exhibit all of the characteristics and behaviors of males and females.

UNTIL I SEE ALIEN ROBOT DICK THIS STATEMENT IS FALSE!

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Confusatron

Tramp, you have to distinguish between the concept of a female, and the actual female gender.

My point is, you're assuming a shitload of stuff that's not mentioned explicitly, therefore not canon.

And anyway, let's forget every other discussion in this thread and focus on this one, it will simplify things and we'll arrive at the same conclusion-

What Gender is Shockwave?

There is no distinction Look up the very definition of the word. I posted it above. Look up the word "gender". It has two definitions dealing with life forms. From the Mirrium-Webster's Online Dictionary:

gender: 2 a: sex <the feminine gender> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex


In either case, it is intristically linked to sex, and through that, sexual reproduction. Only sexual life forms have genders. Only sexual life forms are male or female. Only sexual life forms court. Only sexual life form compete for mates. Only sexual life forms marry. Those are exclusive to sexually reproducing life forms. Male and female are not behavioral "genders" they are physical sexes. That is the distinction.
Canon specifically shows Transformers as being male and female. Those are sexes, not behavioral traits. Secondly, the canon evidence does support sexual reproduction among Transformers. They only thing it does not show is the act of mating. Thus, while it does not explicitly state that Transformers mate, it does show it implicitly by showing them as exhibiting all of the traits, as well as the results of sexual reproduction occurring offscreen. It shows them as being male and female. It shows trhem courting, competing for mates, marrying, and having children. There is actualy more evidence of Transformer sexual reproduction in canon than human sexual reproduction. The concepts of male and female cannot exist without sexual reproduction. The concept is inseperable from, and completely dependent upon the actuallity. So, while we don't see the act itself, there is more than enough canon evidence which does show they are indeed capable of it, and do reproduce sexually to produce offspring.

[Confusatron]

Well, if I take a slug and put a bowtie on it, and another and I put a bow on it, does that make them male or female? Because that's all you're basing your argument on.

And what is Shockwave anyway?

my point is, slugs also compete for a mate, but they're asexual.

Also, if you're a robot that lives for millenia, maybe you're not as interested in a sexual mate as you are in a conversation mate, you know, so you don't get bored.

You're a man who's good at arguing but bad at understanding biology.

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Confusatron

O RLY?

"Aphids are known for having unusual reproductive adaptations in some species. Many aphids undergo cyclical parthenogenesis. In the spring and summer, only females are present in the population. Reproduction is typically parthenogenetic and viviparous. Females undergo a modified meiosis that results in eggs that are genetically identical to their mother (parthenogenetic). The embryos develop within the mothers ovarioles, and give live birth to 1st instar nymphs (viviparous). Aphids typically live from 20-40 days and thus undergo multiple parthenogenetic, viviparous generations each summer. In the fall, a change in photoperiod and temperature cause females to parthenogenetically produce sexual females and males. The males are genetically identical to their mothers except they have lost one sex chromosome. Sexual females and males mate and females lay eggs that will develop outside of the mother. Thus in the fall aphids undergo sexual, oviparous reproduction. The aphids will overwinter as eggs and hatch out as females in the following spring."

That is still sexual reproduction. Sexual reproduction is reproduction through the union of gametes. That is all it means. It doesn't necessarily mean screwing like a couple of jackrabbits. Parthenogenic animals, like some species of aphid, can fertilize themselves. However, it also has a severe drawback in that it inhibits genetic diversity since the offspring are genetically identical to their parent. Aphids are still sexually reproducing as you yourself demonstrated. They still mate to produce offspring. Yes, the females can reproduce parthenogenicaly, but they can also mate and produce children. They are still female and the males are still male, and they still reproduce through the union of male and female. Being male and female is still inherent to sexually reproducing life forms. Truely asexual life forms are neither male nor female and exhibit no sexual traits or gender. They do not exist in asexual life forms. That is why in Marvel comics, no female Transformers existed. In all ther continuities, many female Transfoemrs exist and transformers are indeed establisdhed as being male and female and exhibiting all of the characteristics thereof. They're not parthenogenic either.

[Kup]

Is he ditching G1 Marvel canon??

That means WAR!!

[Kup]

Originally Posted by Tramp

As for their being capable of reproducing through budding in Marvel comics, that actually supports my position. If, in the one continuity where they are sexless, they can reproduce asexually, [b]there is no reason[b] why, in all of the other continutiies which do establish them as having sexes—as being male and female and exhibiting all of the physical, behavioral, and cultural characterisitcs of sexual life forms—they can't reproduce sexually.

What?? When did that happen?

Transformers are sexless in Marvel G1 and as far as I know they didn't need to 'pair up' to produce an offspring.

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Confusatron

Well, if I take a slug and put a bowtie on it, and another and I put a bow on it, does that make them male or female? Because that's all you're basing your argument on.

Niether.

And what is Shockwave anyway?

Shockwave is male.

my point is, slugs also compete for a mate, but they're asexual.

A slug is both male and female. It'as a hermaphrodite having both male and female sex organs. They are not asexual. They do reproduce sexually. Two slugs mate each inserting their male organ into its mate's female organ and each then fertilizes the other. It is still sexual reproduction. Asexual reproduction does not invoivle any mating whatsoever. An Amoeba simply splits in two after accumulating enpugh mass. a Hydra simply grows a bud which deveops into a mini hydra before popping off and growing to full size. That is asexual reproduction. Slugs reproduce sexually. They mate and combine gametes in order to reproduce. What makes them different is that each slug is both male and female at the same time. They must still find a mate and copulate inm order to reproduce. It is not asexual reproduction. So, no, Slugs are not asexual life forms. they are sexual life. They're simply hermaphrodites.

Also, if you're a robot that lives for millenia, maybe you're not as interested in a sexual mate as you are in a conversation mate, you know, so you don't get bored.

You're a man who's good at arguing but bad at understanding biology.

If it were simply conversational, then they wouldn't have sexes. They wouldn't be male and female. Courting is for finding a mate with whom to have offspring, not conversation. You can have a conversation with anyone male or female. Courtship is for finding a mate and produce children. It is strictly sexual behavior. The same is true of competition for the affections of the oipposite sex. Males compete for females in order to pass on their genes to the next generation. Couples marry in order to give their offspring the best chance of survival by having both parents raise the young and divide the responsibility. These are all exclusively sexual behaviors. You don't need a mate to have a conversation. Any friend will do. Finding and choosing a mate is purely sexual and meant for reproduction and raising offspring. Hell, the entire purpose of life is to procreate. It is, perhaps the most fundamental drives for any life form—to pass on ones genes to the next generation.

[Massani]

Well, it is stated specifically in the TFA cannon that robots are created from a protoform mold and given life by The Allspark.

they do grow from protoforms however, and can turn old, as evidenced by Ratchet

[Tramp]

Originally Posted by Kup

What?? When did that happen?

Transformers are sexless in Marvel G1 and as far as I know they didn't need to 'pair up' to produce an offspring.

In Marvel, they don't. However, In Marvel, females don't exist either. In all other continuities though, Transformers are specifically male and female. they are not inherently "genderless" as they are in Marvel. They do have sexes. They are not asexual. They are male and female and exhiubit all of the characteristics that go with it. Therefore, there is no reason why they can't reproduce sexually. If, in the one reality where they are sexless, they can reproduce asexually, then, logically, in all of the realities where they are indeed divided into two sexes, they should be capable of reproducing sexually. That is what being male and female is for. And it is only in Marvel where they weren't divided into male and female. In all other realities, they are clearly divided into male and female. They do have sexes.

[Confusatron]

Originally Posted by Tramp

That is still sexual reproduction. Sexual reproduction is reproduction through the union of gametes. That is all it means. It doesn't necessarily mean screwing like a couple of jackrabbits. Parthenogenic animals, like some species of aphid, can fertilize themselves. However, it also has a severe drawback in that it inhibits genetic diversity since the offspring are genetically identical to their parent. Aphids are still sexually reproducing as you yourself demonstrated. They still mate to produce offspring. Yes, the females can reproduce parthenogenicaly, but they can also mate and produce children. They are still female and the males are still male, and they still reproduce through the union of male and female. Being male and female is still inherent to sexually reproducing life forms. Truely asexual life forms are neither male nor female and exhibit no sexual traits or gender. They do not exist in asexual life forms. That is why in Marvel comics, no female Transformers existed. In all ther continuities, many female Transfoemrs exist and transformers are indeed establisdhed as being male and female and exhibiting all of the characteristics thereof. They're not parthenogenic either.

Ah but you're wrong on one thing-

Genetic diversity is a disadvantage in a constant environment, while it is an advantage in a changing environment. EVERYTHING CAN BE AN ADVANTAGE IN THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT, EVERYTHING CAN BE A DRAWBACK IN THE WRONG ONE.

You claim to know biology.

[Confusatron]

Until I see robot dick, they're asexual. We're talking in cannon absolutes here, not scientific hypotheses. As such, evidence is never enough, only explicit proof.

[Massani]

So yeah, TFA bots go through aging, and i recall ratchet referring to Arcee as a female, but they do not reproduce sexually.

[Confusatron]

Massani, you're not old enough to engage in this discussion.